UGA Men's Basketball: lost cause or sleeping giant?

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dawgpostsucks
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11:41p, 3/1/21
Five years ago Nick Saban said "Georgia, if it's not the best job in the conference, it certainly should be." Today, Andy Staples said "The best job in America is Georgia...let's be honest you have a huge advantage there." If true for football, then why not basketball?

Despite being one of the athletic department's two revenue-generating programs, UGA Men's Basketball has an underwhelming history, is underfunded relative to SEC peers, and struggles acquiring elite in-state talent.

If UGA Athletic Association doubled its financial investment into the program (to rank third in the SEC behind Alabama and Kentucky), then how much of a difference would that make toward UGA Men's Basketball becoming a Top-25 program? How would you allocate increased funding of the program (e.g., investment in a proven head coach and assistant coaches, increased support staff (e.g., analysts), enhanced recruiting budget, commitment to analytics, better S&C staff, training table upgrade)?

National championships: 0
SEC Regular Season Championships: 1 (1990)
Final Four appearances: 1 (1983)
Best-ever AP Top 25 Poll Ranking: #10 on 5 December 1983
Last ranking in the AP Top 25 Poll: #24 on 10 January 2011
All-time record: 1,453-1,339 (52.0%)
Record vs. current SEC opponents: 645-883 (42.2%)

vs. Ole Miss: 73-46 (61.3%)
vs. Mississippi State: 56-56 (50.0%)
vs. Missouri: 8-8 (50.0%)
vs. Texas A&M: 5-5 (50.0%)
vs. Auburn: 95-97 (49.8%)
vs. South Carolina: 56-60 (48.3%)
vs. Florida: 100-117 (46.1%)
vs. LSU: 46-58 (44.2%)
vs. Arkansas: 16-24 (40.0%)
vs. Tennessee: 60-96 (38.7%)
vs. Vanderbilt: 54-91 (37.2%)
vs. Alabama: 51-96 (34.7%)
vs. Kentucky: 25-129 (16.2%)

***

Total Expenses by SEC Men's Basketball Teams from 1 July 2018 - 30 June 2019:

1. Kentucky: $20,202,558
2. Alabama: $15,966,875
3. Texas A&M: $11,818,860
4. Tennessee: $10,554,613
5. Auburn: $10,536,653
6. Arkansas: $10,440,326
7. Vanderbilt: $9,901,818
8. LSU: $9,512,515
9. Ole Miss: $9,432,295
10. Florida: $9,317,385
11. South Carolina: $8,561,964
12. Missouri: $8,255,259
13. Mississippi State: $8,030,614
14. UGA: $7,756,002

***

UGA signed 1 of 20 top-100 national recruits from the state of Georgia the past four classes (2 of 21 if you include KD Johnson, 2020 overall #95 prospect, who played his senior season at Hargrave Military Academy in Virginia):

2021:

  • 5* PF Jabari Smith (overall #5) > Auburn
  • 5* SF Matthew Cleveland (overall #21) > FSU
  • 4* SG Kowacie Reeves (overall #56) > Florida
  • 4* C Ryan Mutumbo (overall #78) > Georgetown
  • 4* SG Chance Moore (overall #85) > Arkansas

2020:

  • 5* C Walker Kessler (overall #22, UGA legacy recruit) > UNC
  • 5* PG Sharife Cooper (overall #24) > Auburn
  • 4* PF JT Thor (overall #51) > Auburn
  • 4* PG Dwon Odom (overall #56) > Xavier
  • 4* PG Deivon Smith (overall #61) > Mississippi State
  • 4* C Kai Sotto (overall #64) > NBA G League
  • 4* CG Eric Gaines (overall #94) > LSU

2019:

  • 5* SG Anthony Edwards (overall #2) > UGA
  • 4* SF Isaac Okoro (overall #36) > Auburn
  • 4* SG Marcus Watson (overall #88) > Oklahoma State

2018:

  • 5* PF EJ Montgomery (overall #9) > Kentucky
  • 5* PG Ashton Hagans (overall #12) > Kentucky [note: was committed to UGA from 21 Dec 17 - 26 Feb 18]
  • 4* SG Will Richardson (overall #46) > Oregon
  • 4* SF Khavon Moore (overall #54) > Texas Tech
  • 4* SF Landers Nolley (overall #67) > Virginia Tech
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Bright Idea
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6:51a, 3/2/21
I think Georgia kids sense an apathy about UGA basketball and other coaches reenforce that on the recruiting trail. These kids' advisors clearly steer them elsewhere too.
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Dirteater Dawg
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6:57a, 3/2/21
If you are spending the least you should expect the least. Clean should have pulled a Kirby and told them I will come but you gotta invest more in the program.
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PaulWesterdawg
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In reply to dawgpostsucks • 7:22a, 3/2/21
They've spent around $50m on facilities the past 15 years to support basketball. That investment isn't reflected in those numbers.

Tom Cream is #23 highest paid coach nationally and #5 in thre SEC. When he was hired he was 3rd.

It's not money.
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JudgeLarryDawg
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7:30a, 3/2/21
A sleeping midget.
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Bulldawg1
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In reply to dawgpostsucks • 8:21a, 3/2/21
Two things really jump out:

1.UGA hasn't been ranked in the top.25 in more than 10 years! (#24 on 10 January 2011).

2. UGA HAS A WINNING RECORD AGAINST 1 SEC TEAM. ONE. OLE MISS. THAT IS RIDICULOUS.
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Nostradawgus
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12:58p, 3/2/21
As bad as we've been, I expected those conference head to head match up records to be far more lopsided.

The money issue isn't with the head coach. We are and have shown we'll spend that money - there.

My guess is we are losing on the assistants, support staff, and recruiting.

Leadership within BM is responsible for rolling up their sleeves, doing competitive research, and figuring out where we are lagging to be even a .500 conference ball club.

There is enough in-state talent for UGA to be a NCAA regular. Pearl is feasting in our state for obvious reasons. You're telling me Auburn has a better hoops history than we do?

There's only been half ass will or want to within BM regarding basketball since the Harrick debacle. And we've hired a sequence of bad coaches. The latter may be the product of the former.

If Crean doesn't make it, they have to quit the half ass and dig in, do their research, and find the best coach for Georgia - not the highest paid coach they can throw money at. Then fund the personnel infrastructure at a level where we can compete.
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dawgpostsucks
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1:22p, 3/2/21
UGA Men's Basketball Fiscal Year 2020 (i.e., 1 July 2019 - 30 June 2020) Revenue and Expenses:

- Total Operating Revenue: $9,651,731
-- Media Rights: $4,303,190
-- Advertising/Revenue/Loyalties: $1,424,684
-- Contributions: $1,361,460
-- Ticket Sales: $1,266,413
-- NCAA Distribution: $718,294
-- Conference Distribution: $425,455
-- Concessions/Novelties/Parking/Programs: $152,235

- Total Operating Expenses: $8,304,553
-- Head Coach Salary & Bonuses: $3,363,066
-- Assistant Coaches (x3) Salaries & Bonuses: $988,001
-- Team Travel: $807,930
-- Game Expenses: $685,954
-- Support Staff Compensation: $681,313
-- Visiting Institution Participation Guarantees: $552,000
-- Scholarships: $539,583
-- Administrative Overhead/Security/Facilities Maintenance/Utilities/Equipment Repair: $260,761
-- Recruiting: $233,331
-- Sports Equipment, Supplies, and Uniforms: $128,569
-- Student-Athlete Meals: $61,894
-- Sports Camp Expenses: $2,151

- Net Profit: $1,347,178
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dawgpostsucks
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In reply to PaulWesterdawg • 1:29p, 3/2/21
PaulWesterdawg said:
They've spent around $50m on facilities the past 15 years to support basketball. That investment isn't reflected in those numbers.

Tom Cream is #23 highest paid coach nationally and #5 in thre SEC. When he was hired he was 3rd.

It's not money.
For comparison's sake, how much money has each SEC Men's Basketball program spent on facilities the past 15 years?

My original post referred to total operational expenses (i..e., salaries & bonuses, support staff compensation, team travel, game expenses, visiting institution participation guarantees, scholarships, administrative overhead/security/facilities maintenance/utilities/equipment repair, recruiting, sports equipment/supplies/uniforms, student-athlete meals, and sports camp expenses), not capital investments.
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Nostradawgus
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In reply to dawgpostsucks • 2:02p, 3/2/21
Woof that recruiting budget looks absolutely miserly. How the hell do you recruit on $250k?

And the asst. coaches is only marginally better.

Take Alabama - double our expenditures. What are THEY spending that extra $7.5mill on????
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jt10mc
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In reply to dawgpostsucks • 2:40p, 3/2/21
Well we are making money...
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Dirteater Dawg
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In reply to jt10mc • 2:45p, 3/2/21
jt10mc said:
Well we are making money...


We are the reserve fund chumps.
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dawgpostsucks
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In reply to jt10mc • 3:01p, 3/2/21
jt10mc said:
Well we are making money...
Hoist that national financial championship trophy high!

UGA Athletic Association has >$102M in its reserve fund despite donating $94.5M in profits to the university for academics, services, experiential learning, diversity initiatives, etc. since 2006. Not bad for a 501-c-3 non-profit. However, since then UGA Athletics athletics performance has fallen from #9 nationally and #2 in the SEC to #21 nationally and #5 in the conference. Btw, when AD Vince Dooley was fired after the 2003-'04 academic year (despite the department earning a net profit since the 1990s) UGA athletics ranked #5 nationally and #1 in the SEC.
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PaulWesterdawg
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In reply to dawgpostsucks • 6:49p, 3/2/21
They could spend more. Sure. They probably should but they should have a smaller than normal recruiting budget given that 10% of the top 100-150 players in the country are 60 min away and you only need 3-5 a year. It's like he needs to fly to Gwinnett County.

The issue historically has been finding and retaining assistants who can recruit the SEC. Typically, the head coach hires the wrong guys. I'm not aware of any HC in 30 years complaining about his assistant coaching salaries being way off.

This guy doesn't complain about much. He has at other jobs.

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PaulWesterdawg
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In reply to dawgpostsucks • 6:55p, 3/2/21
That I agree with. I think McGarity wanted to sell tickets to sit in the bank Vault and watch the interest grow.
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RyanJordan
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7:03p, 3/2/21
Can we admit at least a little bit that McGarity saving for a rainy day paid off?

No one could've predicted last year, but UGA was in better shape to survive than most. How do they take advantage of it though? This is the time to make that pay off.
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Dean Legge
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In reply to RyanJordan • 8:31p, 3/2/21
Staff
RyanJordan said:
Can we admit at least a little bit that McGarity saving for a rainy day paid off?

No one could've predicted last year, but UGA was in better shape to survive than most. How do they take advantage of it though? This is the time to make that pay off.

That's going to be a hard ask.

There's a lot of folks complaining that don't have a good understanding of the obligations you have to have in "savings" for bond requirements, etc.

Georgia is in as healthy a shape as anyone across the country. They, certainly, could be as bad as Tennessee. But they are not.
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ssidedawg
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9:38p, 3/2/21
Why waste money on a basketball program that only a handful of people would ever support? Some of you beat that dead horse that we could spend our way to basketball relevance.
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dawgpostsucks
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9:41p, 3/2/21
University of Georgia Annual Financial Report Fiscal Year Ended 30 June 2020

UGA Athletic Association, Inc.

Total Assets: $447,727,720
- Total Current Assets: $62,373,877
-- Cash and Cash Equivalents: $60,047,599
-- Accounts receivable, net
--- Component Units: $58,884
--- Primary Government: $35,451
--- Other: $1,934,714
-- Prepaid items: $297,229
- Total Non-Current Assets: $385,353,843
-- Investments: $49,827,507
-- Other Assets: $247,930
-- Capital Assets, net: $335,278,406

Deferred Outflow of Resources: $13,653,582

Total Liabilities: $140,724,396
- Total Current Liabilities: $53,020,050
-- Accounts Payable: $2,712,386
-- Salaries Payable: $2,890,840
-- Due to Primary Government: $7,851,616
-- Advances (including tuition and fees): $33,780,208
-- Revenue Bonds and Notes Payable: $5,785,000
- Total Non-Current Liabilities: $87,704,346
-- Other Liabilities: $247,930
-- Notes and Loan Payable: $1,000
-- Revenue Bonds and Notes Payable: $82,389,961
-- Interest Rate Swap: $5,065,455

Total Net Position: $320,656,906 (+$112,785,280 in the last four years)
- Net Investment in Capital Assets: $255,690,572
- Unrestricted: $64,966,344
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dawgpostsucks
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In reply to ssidedawg • 11:27p, 3/2/21
ssidedawg said:
Why waste money on a basketball program that only a handful of people would ever support? Some of you beat that dead horse that we could spend our way to basketball relevance.
Last season UGA Men's Basketball averaged 9,651 home fans, second best in school history. That's more than a handful of people that support the program.

Of 21 intercollegiate sports fielded at UGA, only two of them generate a profit: football and men's basketball.

However, the two sports are resourced completely differently. Since Kirby Smart was hired football expenses increased >50.5% in four years. UGA Football expenditures now rank #2 out of 14 SEC teams. Under Mark Richt UGA's football expenditures ranked #7 out of 14 SEC teams (were you happy with the return on investment under ADGM?).

During the same period, UGA Men's Basketball expenses increased 30.7%. However, the Hoop Dawgs now rank last in the SEC in expenditures (whereas under Fox they ranked #12 out of 14 teams). Trending the wrong way.

Btw, Alabama Football outspent UGA by $20,510,873 in FY19. The Crimson Tide Men's Basketball Team also outspent UGA Men's Basketball by $8,210,873 (i.e., more than twice what UGA spent) in FY19.

So has Alabama's largesse realized a positive return? I think so. The Crimson Tide football team went undefeated and won a national championship last season. Alabama's Men's Basketball program is 20-6 (15-2 SEC) this season and ranked #5 in the coaches poll, #8 in the AP Poll. Do you think Alabama sports fans gripe that they spend too much money on football and basketball when they should instead be donating tens of millions in profits outside the athletic department while simultaneously increasing their reserve fund?

Try winning the Indianapolis 500 driving a Trabant. That's underfunded UGA Men's Basketball trying to win March Madness under the current administration.
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sandersvilledawg
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12:10a, 3/3/21
I don't doubt that UGA basketball is a sleeping giant. We don't have to out spend everybody, but we cannot be last in the conference in spending. We are going to have to recruit consistently better in a talent rich state to have a chance.
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Zoesdawg69
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1:04a, 3/3/21
I have never lost sleep on a Georgia basketball game outside of about two games in my lifetime Over 50 years. Absolutely nothing to show for it. We have a winning record against one team in the SEC in our history?
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Dawg44
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In reply to dawgpostsucks • 8:21a, 3/3/21
Sleeping giant
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ssidedawg
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In reply to dawgpostsucks • 8:32a, 3/3/21
Wishful thinking. The blue bloods control the sport. Sure, every once in a while someone pops up and makes a run. Sustains? I mean we are using Bama as a gold standard for basketball now. Kind of a prisoner of the moment example.

Also, attendance records that break our own school records are a low bar.

Also what about all those teams that outspent us? Where are their national championships outside of Kentucky? Heck, I think there are only 5 FINAL 4 appearances by SEC teams not named UK in the last 20 years. Most of those Florida (one title in 2007). . Seems money was wasted by those guys. Right?

It's easy to say money= Winning.
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PaulWesterdawg
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In reply to dawgpostsucks • 8:39a, 3/3/21
Your math is correct. However, if we had given Mark Richt what we are giving Kirby now would we get the same or even similar results? The money didn't cause Richt to enter the 2012 SEC title game with around 68 kids.

Things improved because we hired Kirby and gave him the money and he knew what to do with the money.

My issue. We haven't hired a coach since Tubby (not even Harrick) that knew what to do with the resources and/or was willing to do it. And for sure, Tubby was under resourced no doubt. As were many others.

All I'm saying is that right now the money isn't our primary problem. Even if we fixed it the primary problem would still exist. We haven't hired the right coaches.

We've tried to throw money at this problem the past 15 years.
-- We offered Mike Anderson Top 10 money. He stayed at Missouri for a pay cut.
-- We gave Felton a state of the art practice facility that was ahead of UK and Indiana, and he opened the ground breaking press conference by complaining about administrative support.
-- We gave Fox around $20m in facilities improvements, and he refused to hire regional recruiters until it was too late
-- We gave Harrick the flexibility to get away with murder and he rewarded us with 3 consecutive years of zero impact high school recruits.

And I know our history. I know that until Harrick we had to recruit around a rodeo. I know that Durham had to buy his own billboards. I know Tubby wasn't seriously counter offered. I know that if it weren't for the Olympics that Stegeman would've looked unspeakably bad in the mid-late 90s. But the last 15 years have been attempts to spend money. Enough money? I'm not sure that doubling the money on these coaches would've done it.

Crean looked promising. He has a vision, the ability to promote the product and a quality resume. And it's going up in flames. But I'm not hearing publicly or back channel that he feels under resourced. We gave him Top 10-15 money at date of hire.

I don't know who they should hire right now. I'm baffled at this point. But I know that the source, root problem is that we haven't hired the right coach. Some of that is luck. Billy Donovan was LUCK at UF. His record at Marshall was paper thin. But they did throw enormous amounts of resources at him AFTER they knew that they had caught lightning in a bottle.
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CummingDawg22
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In reply to ssidedawg • 9:17a, 3/3/21
ssidedawg said:
Wishful thinking. The blue bloods control the sport. Sure, every once in a while someone pops up and makes a run. Sustains? I mean we are using Bama as a gold standard for basketball now. Kind of a prisoner of the moment example.

Also, attendance records that break our own school records are a low bar.

Also what about all those teams that outspent us? Where are their national championships outside of Kentucky? Heck, I think there are only 5 FINAL 4 appearances by SEC teams not named UK in the last 20 years. Most of those Florida (one title in 2007). . Seems money was wasted by those guys. Right?

It's easy to say money= Winning.
Florida won back to back titles.

Final fours aren't really the measure any college basketball fan goes by. If that were the case, everyone is unhappy.

Duke went to four Final Fours from 2000-2020. Kentucky went to 4. Kansas went to five.

Florida went to four. Are they a blueblood you're talking about? They won more titles than two of the teams above as well.

Serious question, do you watch college basketball? I know you will take it hard, but I'm honestly asking. You post on all the Georgia topics about hoops, but it never seems like you have a baseline knowledge.
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Bulldawg1
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In reply to ssidedawg • 9:22a, 3/3/21
if the blue bloods control the sport, did they vote to allow little Gonzaga to be ranked #1 and be undefeated? Did UNC, Duke, and Kentucky determine to be bad this year? Did they lone some players to Houston, Creighton, Loyola, San Diego St, Colorado, Illinois, and Purdue so they could be good? Did the ACC lose favor with the other blue bloods? They only have 1 team ranked in the top 20, FSU. Are the blue bloods losing control? Or did they just decide to fake it this season? I mean Baylor (who has built a strong program), Illinois, West Virginia, and Iowa are in the top 6? What's going on with these blue bloods?

Edit - face was accidental - didn't mean to choose one.
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CummingDawg22
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In reply to PaulWesterdawg • 9:22a, 3/3/21
Pretty much this.
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Dean Legge
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In reply to PaulWesterdawg • 9:55a, 3/3/21
Staff
This is a good post.
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ssidedawg
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In reply to CummingDawg22 • 10:11a, 3/3/21
CummingDawg22 said:
ssidedawg said:
Wishful thinking. The blue bloods control the sport. Sure, every once in a while someone pops up and makes a run. Sustains? I mean we are using Bama as a gold standard for basketball now. Kind of a prisoner of the moment example.

Also, attendance records that break our own school records are a low bar.

Also what about all those teams that outspent us? Where are their national championships outside of Kentucky? Heck, I think there are only 5 FINAL 4 appearances by SEC teams not named UK in the last 20 years. Most of those Florida (one title in 2007). . Seems money was wasted by those guys. Right?

It's easy to say money= Winning.
Florida won back to back titles.

Final fours aren't really the measure any college basketball fan goes by. If that were the case, everyone is unhappy.

Duke went to four Final Fours from 2000-2020. Kentucky went to 4. Kansas went to five.

Florida went to four. Are they a blueblood you're talking about? They won more titles than two of the teams above as well.

Serious question, do you watch college basketball? I know you will take it hard, but I'm honestly asking. You post on all the Georgia topics about hoops, but it never seems like you have a baseline knowledge.


So if final fours aren't a measure of success are you guys just happy if we make the tournament, get bounced after the first second round? Is that a feather in your hat?

My point is obviously several SEC schools have invested a whole lot more money than we have in the basketball program and have almost nothing to show for it either.

LOL I won't take this hard, whatever that means. Actually it's quite the opposite with some of you guys regarding commentary about the basketball program . I'm not offended at all but some of you get really sensitive about a program that isn't ever gonna go anywhere, ever.

Airforce, I love your posts but you can't stat your way out of every discussion. Some things aren't tangible with a stat. I mean, if it was, Kirby would have 2-3 trophies by now.
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ssidedawg
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In reply to PaulWesterdawg • 10:11a, 3/3/21
This
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ssidedawg
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In reply to Bulldawg1 • 10:13a, 3/3/21
Bulldawg1 said:
if the blue bloods control the sport, did they vote to allow little Gonzaga to be ranked #1 and be undefeated? Did UNC, Duke, and Kentucky determine to be bad this year? Did they lone some players to Houston, Creighton, Loyola, San Diego St, Colorado, Illinois, and Purdue so they could be good? Did the ACC lose favor with the other blue bloods? They only have 1 team ranked in the top 20, FSU. Are the blue bloods losing control? Or did they just decide to fake it this season? I mean Baylor (who has built a strong program), Illinois, West Virginia, and Iowa are in the top 6? What's going on with these blue bloods?

Edit - face was accidental - didn't mean to choose one.


Gonzaga is a basketball blue blood. Has been for years.

You kind of proved my point that several teams pop up, play great, and fade away as quickly.

So I guess the hope for your Georgia basketball fans is that we get really good one year and if we fade away we can always point to that one year when things were really really great?
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CummingDawg22
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In reply to ssidedawg • 10:25a, 3/3/21
I don't know what "something to show for it means" in your context.

If it's Final Fours, we agree. Georgia will never, ever, have something to show for it. 99% of the sport won't.

If it's consistently making the tournament and having a few runs in it, Georgia should.
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CummingDawg22
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In reply to ssidedawg • 10:26a, 3/3/21
They've made one Final Four and have no titles in the last 20 years.

They've made the tournament every year.

Creighton has made the tournament 11/19 times. That's pretty consistent.
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GoodDawg4733
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In reply to ssidedawg • 10:50a, 3/3/21
ssidedawg said:
Bulldawg1 said:
if the blue bloods control the sport, did they vote to allow little Gonzaga to be ranked #1 and be undefeated? Did UNC, Duke, and Kentucky determine to be bad this year? Did they lone some players to Houston, Creighton, Loyola, San Diego St, Colorado, Illinois, and Purdue so they could be good? Did the ACC lose favor with the other blue bloods? They only have 1 team ranked in the top 20, FSU. Are the blue bloods losing control? Or did they just decide to fake it this season? I mean Baylor (who has built a strong program), Illinois, West Virginia, and Iowa are in the top 6? What's going on with these blue bloods?

Edit - face was accidental - didn't mean to choose one.


Gonzaga is a basketball blue blood. Has been for years.

You kind of proved my point that several teams pop up, play great, and fade away as quickly.

So I guess the hope for your Georgia basketball fans is that we get really good one year and if we fade away we can always point to that one year when things were really really great?


This is what South Carolina fans do
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