Realistic Assessment of How This Happened and Where to Go Now

5,463 Views | 36 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by Monkdawg
TKramer15
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Guys, I've said all of this before, but all of the "We can get really good by doing _____ or hiring _______" sounds terrific in theory. In reality, a LOT of things must come into place and timing and luck play way larger roles than anyone wants to admit.

Although Fox had some moderate success, Georgia was in a worse position than most of the SEC by 2018-19. Nearly all SEC rosters were stronger. In Fox's final season (2017-18), he had Yante Maten, a senior star who led the SEC in scoring. Georgia could only go 18-15 (7-11). A mere two years later, Tom Crean obtained a freshman star in Anthony Edwards to pair with other freshmen (Wheeler and Camara) and a nice junior in Hammonds who he inherited. That inexperienced squad went 16-16 (5-13). The season ended on a win in the SEC Tourney when everything shut down due to COVID-19.

Although Fox was obviously fired because it was clear that things were trending downward while the rest of the SEC lapped Georgia, Crean was vilified just two years later for achieving basically what Fox did while counting heavily on freshmen and some inherited upperclassmen guards with limited skillsets. That team lost numerous close SEC games that almost surely would've been wins had Claxton not entered the draft. But social media didn't care. Irrational fans didn't care. Crean was basically on thin ice at that point.

Tasked with turning a school that has almost never been a true factor in basketball into a consistent winner within a couple of years when the rest of the conference was already in far better position is as irrational as it gets. Crean's third season actually did show improvement, but again, it seemed like nobody cared. "We still didn't make the tournament," they said. His hot seat got even hotter.

And then in April 2021, the NCAA changed its transfer rules to allow players to transfer anywhere with immediate eligibility. Total chaos ensued. Some schools benefited from the free agency. Others were hurt badly. It can't be that everyone benefits. Georgia, without significant basketball history and perhaps without having added another star piece to keep players engaged, is devastated. Again, it is all Tom Crean's fault according to most fans and media. Social media is brutal. Crean was responsible for acquiring said players in the first place, so he has to be the only reason that they are now leaving -- How does that make sense?

I'm not defending the recent unraveling related to the locker room fight between assistants or the bizarre Zoom snafu. Obviously, Crean will not be retained.

But the irrational mindset of so many helped get us here. Georgia can possibly be good. I understand that non-traditional powers have risen, and that Georgia feels like it should be able to do the same. Pearl's record at Auburn in his first three years was virtually identical to Crean's at Georgia. Questionable recruiting tactics aside, I guarantee you that Pearl would've had a more difficult time making the leap in years 4-5 had the transfer rule been in place then.
TKramer15
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Indiana has now lost five games in a row under new hire Mike Woodson, the former IU star and long-time NBA player and coach. After a 16-5 start, Indiana is now 16-10 (7-9) and probably on the wrong side of the NCAA Tournament bubble. The Hoosiers haven't made the tournament since 2016 when Crean's squad won the conference outright by going 15-3 and then reached the Sweet 16 with a win over Kentucky.

Woodson was apparently supposed to immediately "fix" the Hoosiers' offensive woes, which had been prevalent during Archie Miller's four-year tenure. Back in 2017, Archie was hired to return Indiana to its Bob Knight roots of defense and valuing the ball (attributes that often lagged with Crean's teams). Somewhere along the line, fans and media somehow forgot that Knight's teams typically scored quite well too. His best teams were incredibly diverse offensively and featured tremendous outside shooting.

Although he sort of achieved the goals of playing better defense and securing top in-state recruits, Archie's teams still turned the ball over. The outside shooting was dreadful. Now in 2021-22, with largely the same cast, Woodson is supposed to somehow magically make them way better?

I say all of this as a cautionary tale. Everyone always thinks that there is a secret code that certain coaches have and others don't. Should Archie have been under such immense pressure so soon? No. But should his predecessor, Crean, been canned just one year removed from winning the Big Ten and reaching the Sweet 16? Also probably not. Archie was set up for automatic failure.

Georgia has immeasurably less basketball history than Indiana, and yet, here they are doing the same thing. No patience with a major lack of understanding of the landscape. You cannot make a hire and then put the guy in a position where he has to reach some arbitrary level within a short time. I don't care how much money is involved -- They ALL make too much money.
Monkdawg
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Some interesting discussions points you raise. Some I agree with and some I disagree with. Suffice to say that it is really hard to win at the major college level. You would think UGA would have lucked into consistent winning somewhere in the last 40-50 years, but we really haven't. I agree that Crean was probably fired at IU at the wrong time. He had 2 major injuries his last season that made it impossible for them to improve.

But I'm not worried about IU. I'm worried about UGA. I disagree that it isn't time for Crean to go or that Crean hasn't been given enough time to succeed. It's not just about what the current record is, but it is about how the program is trending. I agree that Crean's record over his 1st 3 years is similar to Pearl's at Auburn. But Pearl was recruiting bigtime. You could see what was coming down the road. Crean doesn't have the recruits in place to give us hope of a turnaround. We are not trending well at all.

I agree that Crean's 1st team lacked SEC caliber talent. His 2nd team was really, really young, so they weren't going to win. But the youth gave us hope for the future. His 3rd team showed some improvement, but there were chemistry issues and unhappiness that led to most of that team's talent leaving (for whatever reason). If that team could have held together, I think we would have made a big improvement this year. And if ifs and buts were candies and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Xmas.... This season Crean was forced to cobble together a roster as best he could. Other teams had to do something similar because of the portal. Then we had injuries to 2 key players. And any chance the team had was gone.

There is no one to put the blame on but Crean. Crean will pay the price for failure. Perhaps he could succeed somewhere in the midwest, but he has proven unable to do so in Athens. Crean is done, so any reassessment or plan for the future will have to start with a new coach.
Bright Idea
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Ultimately the won-loss record can't be ignored regardless of how it happened. Factor in the eye test of shoddy defense, turnovers and an offensive strategy void of the type players needed to make it work and four years of Crean leaves UGA/Brooks little choice. Do something, even if it is wrong, and with UGA basketball, it likely will be.
StevieBuckets
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TKramer15 said:

Crean's third season actually did show improvement, but again, it seemed like nobody cared. "We still didn't make the tournament," they said. His hot seat got even hotter.
There is a lot here, but this statement is one that stuck out to me. Is this true? Do you have receipts?

No doubt there were some people getting nervous (lots of turnovers, sketchy defense, subpar incoming class), but I don't recall people calling for his head because that team didn't make the tournament.

It was the mass exodus. That's when I remember heads starting to turn. That the kids he managed to pull in the portal were clearly lesser talents than the kids he lost was icing on that cake.

Anyone remember differently? Were the masses lighting their pitchforks earlier than I remember?

Edit: https://dawgpost.com/forums/3/topics/25869

While there had certainly been frustration before that point (including from me), that's when it seemed to boil over...
TKramer15
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I am with you guys in that there is no real choice, but I believe that such a predicament is mostly caused by the lack of realistic expectations from the beginning and then a lack of understanding of how the transfer portal might affect things. I understand that ultimately the coach is going to have to take responsibility, fair or not. When the social media noise heats up like it did in year two, it's not a good omen.

Up until shortly after the narrow home loss to Auburn, I thought that Crean and the staff were doing as well as they could to keep this cobbled together, shorthanded squad motivated. However, several more losses and additional social media vitriol seemed to finally cause a breaking point. The pressure of knowing that everyone thinks that you don't know what you're doing (despite plenty of history to the contrary) has to become agonizing. Yeah, Crean gets paid big bucks (too much $) to deal with that. Whether it's at IU or Georgia or Minnesota or Nebraska or Arizona St or Georgetown or Georgia Tech, etc., the coaching carousel just isn't where you want to be.

I've seen numerous Tweets and other remarks about Steve Forbes, the Wake Forest coach, being a guy that Georgia should target. I have nothing against Forbes and realize that he did nice work at East Tennessee State. Several fans went as far as to lament that Georgia could have hired Forbes instead of Crean in 2018. They're saying these things because Forbes has gone from 6-16 in year one at Wake Forest to 21-7 so far in year two. "Look what he did in the portal!" they exclaim. "What a turnaround! We could've had him." Two things stand out. First, the reliance on such a small sample size to make such an overarching determination is again puzzling. Second, why do fans believe that Georgia is somehow a better, more prestigious job than Wake Forest?
Nostradawgus
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For me it wasn't the NCAA as a benchmark - which it absolutely was for Fox at a certain point - it was the consistently horrible play. The turnovers, the lack of rebounding, the utter care to play any defense. The huge losses were a by product. And a sign.

Good players, bad players, transfer players - they all continue to play like they never played the game. Then they transferred out - and start playing lights out.

There is something wrong. Time to start over. Again.
Dawg44
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You speak nothing but the truth. I love your posts.
TKramer15
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https://bustingbrackets.com/2020/04/15/ncaa-basketball-15-head-coaches-early-hot-seat-2020-21-season/2/

https://www.si.com/college/georgia/news/tom-crean-seat-heat-georgia-basketball-lose-auburn-wedensday

https://www.onlineathens.com/story/sports/college/bulldogs-extra/2021/01/15/uga-basketball-tom-crean-josh-brooks-bulldogs/4173825001/

Here are a few articles. The first was written right after the 2019-20 season was prematurely canceled because of COVID-19. I can't totally vouch for what the social media undercurrent was at the time, but you can bet that it was highly negative. The content of that first article from April 2020 contains several remarks that lack context or perspective. Unfortunately, all of that noise is difficult to overcome. Yeah, that's partially why the coaches get paid big bucks, but there are so many factors at play. I'm just fully sick of the vicious cycle.
TKramer15
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I would say that Wheeler, KD and Camara all very much showed what they were capable of at Georgia. Given several years, they were clearly good enough to significantly improve Georgia's stock in the SEC. Wheeler and KD are now obviously surrounded by significant talent, which helps make them look even better.

If there's an indictment on Crean in their departures, it's that he wasn't able to secure another flashy name to join forces with those guys to give them a more obvious reason to stay. Even so, I'm not sure it would've mattered. Whether people want to admit it or not, we know that there is constant communication among players from different schools. In many cases, players have been recruited by numerous different coaching staffs. With no penalty whatsoever for transferring, guys were free to try out a school with significantly more basketball prestige and/or a perceived greater likelihood of guaranteed success.

KD mentioned the "exposure" that he would receive from teaming with potential #1 pick Jabari Smith. Wheeler going to Kentucky needs no explanation. Kier to Arizona needs no explanation. Camara was probably a slight exception in that he clearly moved down in terms of conference with Dayton in the Atlantic 10. However, Dayton actually has quite a basketball tradition. Fans regularly pack UD Arena. Of course it didn't hurt that Dayton recruited Camara and that just two years ago Dayton had a historic season with future lottery pick Obi Toppin.

I'm not saying that Crean didn't make mistakes behind the scenes or that his personality quirks didn't wear on anyone. But it's safe to assume that if it was all about Crean's perceived personality and social media reputation, then these guys wouldn't have come in the first place or that he wouldn't have gotten great players at Indiana or Marquette.
kgeee
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TKramer15 said:

Indiana has now lost five games in a row under new hire Mike Woodson, the former IU star and long-time NBA player and coach. After a 16-5 start, Indiana is now 16-10 (7-9) and probably on the wrong side of the NCAA Tournament bubble. The Hoosiers haven't made the tournament since 2016 when Crean's squad won the conference outright by going 15-3 and then reached the Sweet 16 with a win over Kentucky.

Woodson was apparently supposed to immediately "fix" the Hoosiers' offensive woes, which had been prevalent during Archie Miller's four-year tenure. Back in 2017, Archie was hired to return Indiana to its Bob Knight roots of defense and valuing the ball (attributes that often lagged with Crean's teams). Somewhere along the line, fans and media somehow forgot that Knight's teams typically scored quite well too. His best teams were incredibly diverse offensively and featured tremendous outside shooting.

Although he sort of achieved the goals of playing better defense and securing top in-state recruits, Archie's teams still turned the ball over. The outside shooting was dreadful. Now in 2021-22, with largely the same cast, Woodson is supposed to somehow magically make them way better?

I say all of this as a cautionary tale. Everyone always thinks that there is a secret code that certain coaches have and others don't. Should Archie have been under such immense pressure so soon? No. But should his predecessor, Crean, been canned just one year removed from winning the Big Ten and reaching the Sweet 16? Also probably not. Archie was set up for automatic failure.

Georgia has immeasurably less basketball history than Indiana, and yet, here they are doing the same thing. No patience with a major lack of understanding of the landscape. You cannot make a hire and then put the guy in a position where he has to reach some arbitrary level within a short time. I don't care how much money is involved -- They ALL make too much money.
IU fired Crean for a variety of reasons. He alienated many Indiana high school coaches. His salesman type personality did not go over well with seasoned Indiana basketball coaches. He failed to realize that Indiana high school coaches know the basketball game quite well. High school coaches stopped recommending IU to the players. Purdue started signing the best players, as did Michigan State and others who grabbed the Indiana kids.

Crean's win loss record is very suspect. His preseason competition regularly feature teams in the 300 and up ratings. It was embarrassing to watch this happen over and over. His IU record was 166-135. When you factor in the 6-7 preseason cupcakes every year, and I do mean CUPCAKES, it's not impressive IMO. There are very few accomplished coaches with so many crap wins on their resume. Other than already scheduled tournaments, his choice of competition sucks.

He did not control his players. From drunk players running over other players with their cars, also ,there were many drug infractions and skipping classes. He was not in control of his team. One promising player actually quit mid year to leave the school because his roomies were doing so many drugs in their dorm.

When OG Anunoby and others went down injured, his teams were not playing well before the injuries. Injuries changed nothing in the matter of his coaching.

His best teams were lead by Indiana kids that were raised by coaches, or had excellent Indiana high school coaches. It's been rumored that his best teams were actually "coached" by the players themselves. They stopped listening to him. When his "cerebral" teams, (his words) left school, his teams started all the bad habits again. Turning the ball over, no defense, and poor offense. His assistant coaches started holding up signs during the game to show players what to do. This was, ridiculous and a huge embarrassment.

Yes Archie Miller failed, but when he first started as the head coach, several players commented that they loved how easily he showed them sets and plays. Crean over explained everything, players were often confused.
Crean is a great speaker, but below average basketball coach. Indiana's best players were in Cook Hall daily working on their games. He did little to nothing to improve gifted players, they did it on their own. He doesn't get credit for someone like Victor Oladipo doing so well because Vic lived in Cook Hall and developed his game. That's why IU had some successful teams. Cody Zeller, Jordan Hulls, Will Sheehey and Vic were among the players that had high basketball IQs, and they continued to work on their considerable basketball skills on their own. IU had good seasons with the gifted players he was able to sign. Too bad he lost so many high school coaches along the way...he may have continued to do well at Indiana if he could sign more kids that would do well, even with his lack of coaching skills.
SidViciousDawg
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Impressive first post by kgee. Who's your team kgee??
Atowndawg
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I am not sure that I can co-sign that where we are today is due to unreasonably high expectations. Most people do not care. Those of us that do have varying opinions on what is wrong/went wrong. Most negative opinions revolve around a poor cultural fit, poor play, the player exodus, bad recruiting, and the lack of upward momentum to the program. Several things could have broken in Crean's favor, but did not. Some of that is bad luck. In totality though, he did not do enough right. At this point, there is enough going wrong that he cannot possible dig himself out of it. However, none of that is due to fan expectations. Most casual fans have written him off, but there are no angry masses here. If anything, apathy has just set in.

Crean can no longer sell hope and change to recruits. At some point your record matters and the product on the floor matters. He doesn't get to sell superior facilities or historic success. All he can sell is his coaching brand and our win-loss record. Both have taken a significant nose dive of late. His window has closed. He cannot repackage things now. In fairness to him, he had a thin margin for success. It is a tough job, it really is.

If anything, his tenure should teach the next guy and administration that a significant investment and vision is needed here to get better results. Talent acquisition and discovery has to be the highest priority for the new staff. We will need a near revolutionary NIL/recruiting program and one of the top recruiting staffs in the country to be successful. The new coaching staff is going to need a facilities plan to sell to prospective recruits upon arrival. There is no upward momentum right now.
Microwave
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There has been chatter that Cuonzo and Mike White might be losing favor at their respective schools. I would love to have either.
TKramer15
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Not an impressive post at all. Sorry, I hate to keep talking about Crean at IU, but this narrative contains numerous outright falsehoods and totally misses the mark. It makes assumptions based on hearsay and lacks context or perspective, which a lot of IU fans (and fans in general) struggle with.

Win-loss record at IU: You can't really count Crean's first three years can you? The program was at ground zero after the Sampson infractions. If you are counting those years, then you either lack knowledge of the situation or are intentionally trying to make Crean look worse.

From 2011-12 through 2015-16, Indiana went 120-53, won two outright Big Ten titles and advanced to three Sweet 16s. That five-year span was IU's best since Knight's Cheaney-Bailey-Henderson group in the early-90s. Those are verifiable, objective facts. Not hearsay. Not conjecture. They don't care about Tom Crean's sideline pacing or his meme-producing funny faces, just as Knight's boorish behavior didn't change his team's results.

Scheduling: IU's pre-conference scheduling under Crean was a far cry from the Knight days and certainly could've stood to have been tougher in a couple of his later years. Overall, context is again important. IU was at an all-time low when Crean took over. The roster lacked the normal allotment of scholarship players. Creating tougher pre-conference schedules would've served little purpose. By the time things started to turn around, I'm sure future schedules were mostly locked in. Of course, Calipari refused to continue with the annual rivalry game after IU stunned #1 Kentucky in 2011. Your narrative conveniently also left out IU's victories over Kansas and North Carolina early in Crean's final season (with a nearly fully healthy roster). Indiana also shellacked a good North Carolina team in 2012 as part of the ACC/Big Ten Challenge.

"There are very few accomplished coaches with so many crap wins on their resume. Other than already scheduled tournaments, his choice of competition sucks.": I've already covered this one to a degree, but let's further refute this baseless claim.

In Crean's final six seasons at IU, his teams defeated the following ranked opponents:

2011-12: (1) Kentucky, (2) Ohio St, (16) Michigan, (5) Michigan St
2012-13: (14) North Carolina, (8) Minnesota, (13) Michigan St, (1) Michigan, (10) Ohio St, (4) Michigan St, (7) Michigan
2013-14: (3) Wisconsin, (10) Michigan, (20) Iowa, (22) Ohio St
2014-15: (22) Southern Methodist, (23) Butler, (22) Ohio St, (13) Maryland
2015-16: (4) Iowa, (17) Purdue, (16) Iowa, (14) Maryland, (10) Kentucky
2016-17: (3) Kansas, (3) North Carolina

That's 26 wins versus ranked opponents in Crean's final six seasons. I cannot find a source to 100% verify it, but I recall hearing back then that IU ranked first in the Big Ten in terms of wins against ranked opponents over that period. In six years, Crean's IU squads defeated a staggering 14 teams ranked inside the AP top 10. Nine of those were ranked inside the top five. Over the course of eight games at the end of the 2015-16 season and the start of the 2016-17 season, Crean defeated blue bloods Kentucky, Kansas and North Carolina.

In-Game Coaching: You went off the reservation here into conspiracy theory world. The information I just presented is plenty enough to refute all this nonsense regarding in-game coaching, players not listening, etc. Are you referring to Yogi Ferrell becoming a fantastic leader during this final two seasons? Because that's kind of necessary to excel at this level of basketball. You must have tremendous point guard play and leadership.

Player Development: Whatever point you're trying to make here is again refuted by all sorts of objective facts and a boatload of common sense. Did Crean attend every individual training session and personally guide Oladipo or Hulls or Watford or OG, etc. to improvement? Of course not. Nobody thinks that. If you're going to be a tremendous collegiate or professional player, you have to put in the work. All we can really deduce is that, for the most part, guys did improve under Crean. Some, like Oladipo of OG, improved dramatically. Those guys were not highly rated recruits who turned into NBA starters and semi-stars. Sahvir Wheeler spoke highly of the group's improvement under Crean just after last season ended. Unfortunately, the NCAA changed its transfer rules weeks later and everything was blown up.

The assistants holding up signs occurred very briefly during Crean's final season, one in which the team was ravaged by injuries. It was a big deal for those grasping for more reasons to disparage Crean. Other teams have used signs. Speaking of that season…

Crean's final season at IU: Following a stellar run through the Big Ten and a third Sweet 16 appearance in five years, highlighted by a 73-67 win over Kentucky, Crean was seemingly back in IU fans' good graces heading into the 2016-17 campaign. The goodwill increased when Indiana beat Kansas on a neutral court in Hawaii to open the season, dipped when they lost at Purdue Fort Wayne and rose again when IU dominated future National Champion North Carolina start to finish at Assembly Hall. Blackmon, who missed most of the prior season after tearing an ACL in December 2015, tweaked a knee in the Fort Wayne loss. OG Anunoby, who emerged as a potential star late the prior season, sprained his ankle in the final minutes of the UNC win. He missed three games before returning against a good Butler team in Indianapolis. Clearly tentative and limited, OG scored just seven points in 26 minutes. IU lost 83-78. It did not appear that OG was fully healthy for a couple more weeks. That, combined with the obvious adjustment to not having four-year stud point guard Yogi Ferrell at the helm, seemed to rattle IU's confidence tremendously.

Just as IU appeared to be re-gaining its swagger, OG tore an ACL while coming down with a rebound at Penn St on January 18. Indiana got a huge performance from Blackmon to beat Michigan St days later, but the oft-injured sharp shooter suffered another lower body injury of some sort in the very next game at Michigan. Blackmon subsequently missed the next three contests before returning against Purdue. Clearly not right, he struggled through a 3-14 performance. IU lost 69-64 to the rival Boilers.

IU lost OG and Blackmon, arguably its two most important players, in the thick of the Big Ten schedule and lost seven of eight games. Forward Juwan Morgan, freshman guard Devonte Green and freshman backup center De'Ron Davis also all suffered injuries during that span. Mostly forgotten by casual fans was the preseason ACL tear suffered by senior forward Collin Hartman. A Swiss army knife "glue guy" of sorts, Hartman was the only senior on the roster and would have likely started and provided crucial leadership.

Despite all those injuries, Crean maintained positivity amongst the squad. After heartbreaking last second losses at Iowa and Minnesota, IU beat Northwestern and Ohio St before crushing Iowa in the conference tourney to regain some NCAA Tournament hopes. A loss to a loaded Wisconsin team squashed those hopes. IU probably finished one win shy of an at-large bid. Crean was fired despite coming within one game of the NCAA Tournament after playing substantial parts of the season without his two best players and a senior starter in addition to other ailments. Blackmon was the team's best shooter and top scorer. Anunoby was the team's best defender and provided ample rebounding help.

Off Court Issues: The 2013-2015 period featured some embarrassing and unfortunate off-court incidents. The Devin Davis situation was chief among them. Without a doubt, questionable decision making was made. None of it reflected positively on Crean. He seemingly misevaluated the character of several recruits, most of whom did not end up helping much on the court either. As for the drug use, this isn't an excuse, but Kelvin Sampson's brief tenure was purportedly rife with drug use and academic issues. Archie faced some type of issue on at least one occasion. Mike Woodson did as well just a couple weeks ago. The Crean player that you mentioned as having transferred because of teammates' drug use was freshman big man Luke Fischer. That loss really stung because Fischer would've undoubtedly played a prominent role down the road. With him in the fold, there's no telling how much better IU would've been that season and particularly the following year. Ultimately, it seemed that Fischer was also homesick. He returned to play at Marquette in his native Wisconsin.

Crean deservedly took heat during that period, but some of the complaints were clearly too strong. The coach cannot be everywhere at once. I also wonder how many of these incidents get swept under the rug at other places. We also know how filthy shady the recruiting world was and still is. Bill Self at Kansas and Will Wade at LSU caught on the phone discussing payments to recruits and yet they remain in their jobs. Sean Miller hung on at Arizona seemingly forever until I guess they weren't winning enough anymore. Whether this stuff is so rampant that it occurs virtually everywhere remains unknown. However, Tom Crean has always been regarded as a stand up guy in that regard.

In-State Recruiting/Relationship with HS Coaches: I've now heard this negative relationship with high school coaches narrative regarding Crean at IU, Archie at IU and Crean at Georgia. Perhaps it's all true. The bottom line is that if you win and win big right away, this isn't a story. Archie came in with major fan and media hoopla. He was advertised as way better than Crean in every way. At first, he absolutely re-energized in-state recruiting. But it didn't translate to major success. As soon as doubt crept in that Archie wasn't actually "better" than Crean (or able to magically bring IU back to the late 1980s), things turned sour. Suddenly, this "high school coaches don't like him" narrative resurfaced.

Your remarks about IU being passed up by other rivals for in-state recruits lack perspective. Unfortunately, it isn't the late 1980s when Knight could essentially hand pick whoever he wanted. The landscape is WAY different, and it continues to get more cutthroat. Purdue, Ohio State, Michigan St, Michigan, Wisconsin and Illinois have all been as good or better than Indiana since the mid-90s. Then throw in the likes of Kentucky, Louisville, Butler, Notre Dame and Xavier all within a short distance from Bloomington and it's even harder. Georgia, with significantly less basketball history, is in an even more challenging position now that the rest of the SEC has raised the bar.
TKramer15
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My apologies for the marathon post. I'm truly sick of the ridiculous narratives and lack of perspective of so many. Dislike him, dislike his quirks, think he's an a**hole, whatever you want. But the total lack of objectivity and rational thought when it comes to what he has accomplished in the game is really annoying. Most everything at Georgia has unraveled based upon a transfer rule change and Claxton improving too much in his sophomore season. Crean certainly made mistakes along the way, but in a nutshell, that's it.
SidViciousDawg
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Lots of words there that don't make one damn; like most of your post defending Crean. We don't care bout IU…. We had one losing record in the six years prior to Crean (7-11) and that got the Staff fired. We didn't hire Crean to go 2-16 his first year and damn sure aren't keeping him after he goes
1-17 his fourth year. He is currently 15-54 and has our program in the worst shape of my 50+ years following the Dawgs.

I will admit I don't do much more than scan your posts.
I did read your "apology". Talk about ridiculous narratives and lack of perspective… No school anywhere is keeping anyone who trashes their program like Crean has ours. Good frigging riddance and good luck ever coaching again.
Monkdawg
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TKramer15 said:

My apologies for the marathon post. I'm truly sick of the ridiculous narratives and lack of perspective of so many. Dislike him, dislike his quirks, think he's an a**hole, whatever you want. But the total lack of objectivity and rational thought when it comes to what he has accomplished in the game is really annoying. Most everything at Georgia has unraveled based upon a transfer rule change and Claxton improving too much in his sophomore season. Crean certainly made mistakes along the way, but in a nutshell, that's it.
Look, you can defend Crean. I can give reasons why he has failed in Athens. None of that matters at this point. He is done. He is out in probably 4 games. None of the rationale about his failure at IU or at UGA matters. I cannot agree that he is a good coach. A good coach has his team playing solid, fundamental defense. We simply don't. A good coach recruits his own state reasonably well. Crean hasn't. A good coach emphasizes cutting down TOs. Crean doesn't. A good coach has a good relationship with in-state HS coaches. Crean doesn't. Regardless of any rationale about reasons for his perceived failures, Crean has just not demonstrated the ability to sustain any success at UGA. He has had 4 years. 4 years is enough to demonstrate that you can do the job. A friend of mine has gone to about 20 practices; he said Crean rarely works on anything on defense beyond simple shell drills. That don't cut it.
Dawg44
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I prefer the truth. Thank you for clearing this up.
kgeee
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SidViciousDawg said:

Impressive first post by kgee. Who's your team kgee??
Thanks. It was much too wordy, sorry about that. My teams are IU, Georgia and St. Louis. Family members work at IU, my grandparents are from Georgia and I have family that played at St. Louis.
kgeee
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TKramer15 said:

My apologies for the marathon post. I'm truly sick of the ridiculous narratives and lack of perspective of so many. Dislike him, dislike his quirks, think he's an a**hole, whatever you want. But the total lack of objectivity and rational thought when it comes to what he has accomplished in the game is really annoying. Most everything at Georgia has unraveled based upon a transfer rule change and Claxton improving too much in his sophomore season. Crean certainly made mistakes along the way, but in a nutshell, that's it.
This will be short. No untruths in my post. I don't excuse his record in his third year at IU. No excuse for finishing last in the Big 10 in his third year. Jordan Hulls, IU's sharp shooter from Bloomington Indiana, had deep basketball connections to IU. His grandfather was on staff with Bob Knight. One of his family members was constantly on twitter complaining about Crean's coaching. Even with his beloved relative on the team, he didn't hold back about Crean's terrible coaching. This came from someone with a very high basketball IQ, and he had no axe to grind.

I'm hoping Georgia finds a better fit for their team. The players that left in the transfer portal seem happy with their new teams. Next season will be difficult for the basketball team, but thankful for our football!!

Teddybulldawg
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Having realistic expectations of success when you expect mediocrity never got anybody anywhere.

There is no ceiling on Georgia basketball but what we choose to accept.

Does that mean a perennial final 4 type program? Most likely not. Could it mean getting in the tournament more often than not? I think that is doable at any major program with the right guy.

Keeping Fox around for as long as we did was a mistake.
I hoped for better days with Crean. Not all of his tenure has been horrible. He certainly wasn't dealt a fair hand with Covid and then the portal. But it is what it is. He clearly can't retain the talent that he does recruit. I say this without knowing the story, but it appears that not enough people like the guy. When you are popular, both within the program and on the recruiting trail, people want to help you get where you need to go.
I hope that Brooks again swings for the fences, but if he can't get a proven hot commodity, I would be ok with a guy like Jonas. People love Jonas. Kids will want to play for him and people will want to help him be successful.
SidViciousDawg
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When should we have fired Fox in your opinion? Year four, when we won 8 of 12 down the stretch to finish 9-9? Is it remotely realistic for UGA to fire their coach after 10-8, 11-7 or 12-6 seasons? At the earliest we could have fired Fox after year 8 when we finished 9-9. Still a tough ask of the AD to fire a guy who hasn't had a losing record in conference for five straight years. Just ridiculous to think we fire him before season 8 at the earliest. So we fire Fox after we go 7-11and made a horrible hire in Tom Crean.

Crean comes in and goes a combined 7-29 his first two years and you post on here that "you can't quite give Crean an A but you do give him a B+" after year two. Then after year three, and all the departures, you post "you think Crean gets a bad rap…".

There are several of you that were regularly calling for Fox's ouster during that stretch of 5 straight non-losing conference schedules. Even during years 5-7, where we had 33 wins in three years, y'all were wanting him fired. Then Crean goes
7-29 and you give him a B+. WTH happened to y'all? The first losing season (in six years) of 7-11 gets a guy fired but
7-29 gets the new guy a B+?? Crean's failure and our demise has zero to do with Fox.

Monkdawg
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SidViciousDawg said:

When should we have fired Fox in your opinion? Year four, when we won 8 of 12 down the stretch to finish 9-9? Is it remotely realistic for UGA to fire their coach after 10-8, 11-7 or 12-6 seasons? At the earliest we could have fired Fox after year 8 when we finished 9-9. Still a tough ask of the AD to fire a guy who hasn't had a losing record in conference for five straight years. Just ridiculous to think we fire him before season 8 at the earliest. So we fire Fox after we go 7-11and made a horrible hire in Tom Crean.

Crean comes in and goes a combined 7-29 his first two years and you post on here that "you can't quite give Crean an A but you do give him a B+" after year two. Then after year three, and all the departures, you post "you think Crean gets a bad rap…".

There are several of you that were regularly calling for Fox's ouster during that stretch of 5 straight non-losing conference schedules. Even during years 5-7, where we had 33 wins in three years, y'all were wanting him fired. Then Crean goes
7-29 and you give him a B+. WTH happened to y'all? The first losing season (in six years) of 7-11 gets a guy fired but
7-29 gets the new guy a B+?? Crean's failure and our demise has zero to do with Fox.


Once again, the SEC when Fox was here is not what it is today. But there's no point in discussing it. Fox is gone. Crean will be gone. We need to think about the future, not the past. Where we go now is really the only germane point.
Dawg44
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We should have fired Fox after his first loss. There is no excuse for losing.
dawglegright
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As bad as Crean has been, Fox was horrible too.

Fox thinking Marcus Thornton was a perimeter offensive player was just dumb. Playing Brantley over Gaines. Fox had some good players and really underachieved with the talent he actually had. Fox couldn't even make the NIT with two years of KCP. Fox was more frustrating than Crean, perhaps because Fox was here for so long.
Dawg44
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Bingo
Monkdawg
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dawglegright said:

As bad as Crean has been, Fox was horrible too.

Fox thinking Marcus Thornton was a perimeter offensive player was just dumb. Playing Brantley over Gaines. Fox had some good players and really underachieved with the talent he actually had. Fox couldn't even make the NIT with two years of KCP. Fox was more frustrating than Crean, perhaps because Fox was here for so long.
Fox hated playing freshmen, too. It got him a bad rap with players and coaches. His defenses were over-rated, and his offensive philosophy was Stone Aged.
SidViciousDawg
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You guys really think that going from 7-11,our first losing season in six years, to 7-29 the following two seasons is all about the league improving? Fox was far from great but he was far from terrible. Tom Crean has been terrible.

To discredit those good teams we had those years is insulting as hell to Marcus, Nemi, Kenny, Charles, Yante, JJ, etc. Winning 33 SEC games in 3 years is not easy. Nobody but Kentucky won more and y'all say we really weren't any good?? Our record was better than 12 SEC Teams those three years and you somehow think Fox & Staff's 49-41 their last five years is comparable to Crean & Staff's 14-54, because the league is better??

You think Jonas believes those teams weren't any good? Jonas knows they were pretty damn good. Its fair to say Fox blew a game or two each of those years and that kept him from having five tourney teams instead of the two but to believe his tenure is on par with Crean's is ludicrous.
SidViciousDawg
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Monkdawg said:

dawglegright said:

As bad as Crean has been, Fox was horrible too.

Fox thinking Marcus Thornton was a perimeter offensive player was just dumb. Playing Brantley over Gaines. Fox had some good players and really underachieved with the talent he actually had. Fox couldn't even make the NIT with two years of KCP. Fox was more frustrating than Crean, perhaps because Fox was here for so long.
Fox hated playing freshmen, too. It got him a bad rap with players and coaches. His defenses were over-rated, and his offensive philosophy was Stone Aged.


Analytics tell the story, Crean's teams have been no better in Offensive Efficiency where we are currently #212 and far worse in Defensive Efficiency where we are currently #337.
Monkdawg
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SidViciousDawg said:

Monkdawg said:

dawglegright said:

As bad as Crean has been, Fox was horrible too.

Fox thinking Marcus Thornton was a perimeter offensive player was just dumb. Playing Brantley over Gaines. Fox had some good players and really underachieved with the talent he actually had. Fox couldn't even make the NIT with two years of KCP. Fox was more frustrating than Crean, perhaps because Fox was here for so long.
Fox hated playing freshmen, too. It got him a bad rap with players and coaches. His defenses were over-rated, and his offensive philosophy was Stone Aged.


Analytics tell the story, Crean's teams have been no better in Offensive Efficiency where we are currently #212 and far worse in Defensive Efficiency where we are currently #337.
You may continue to worship Fox if you choose. As he is no longer associated with UGA and left in a huff, bad-mouthing us he went out the door, I have no interest in him or his teams. We can continue to pound on this dead horse, or we can actually discuss something germane to our current program.
dawglegright
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No discredit to the players. Fox should have won more with those guys.
SidViciousDawg
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Agree 100% Fox should have won more with those players. We should have had 5 bids instead of the 2. But for people not to admit that Fox's tenure was exponentially more successful than Crean's is delusional. We had good teams and players many of Fox's years and have had zero with Crean.
dawglegright
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Crean's teams have never been good enough to even care if we lose because it doesn't matter and has never mattered.

That's why Fox was so frustrating.

Fox also thought Kamar Baldwin was only worthy of a walk-on offer. So many reasons to dislike Fox. He's possibly the most stubborn, unlikeable personality to ever coach any team at Georgia. If Crean was going to be here 9 years, it looks like Crean would take that distinction away from Foxy. I still say Foxy was exponentially more frustrating than Crean.
sids01
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I agree with this post. Georgia didn't have a more effective in 2018 than its Oct. Bulldogs, Starting the game with an undefeated record. They Closed Tiger Stadium with a 36-16 beatdown. But, I love to watch the Andrew toles and his spriti https://networthgain.com/andrew-toles-net-worth/.
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