Crean's got it rolling

7,879 Views | 57 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by Nostradawgus
CummingDawg22
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UgaFann said:

Watch him having the coaching year of his life
He'd need an absolute miracle for that. The team just won't have any talent.

Would be very Georgia though.

Regardless, I'm firing Crean because of his recruiting. It's never been at the level Georgia needs. I doubt that changes.
apmdawg
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I know the buyout is big but this is like owning a paid for 10 year old car that is starting to need major repairs (like motor or transmission). At some point, you have to quit pouring money into it hoping it will get better and just buy a replacement. I have no animosity against Crean, however he was hired to improve the basketball program at UGA and it is not improving, it appears to be declining. His record so far is worse than the guy he replaced.
Dawg44
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If we hired someone with head coaching experience, I would want them to have been to a final four and multiple sweet sixteens that prove they know what they are doing. They would also need to be a good recruiter and promote the program very well.
If we hired an assistant, I would want someone who loves Georgia and might not ever leave. They would also need to be a great recruiter and promote the program very well.
Either one of these would give us a fighting chance to become a great basketball program if we don't fire them after just a few years.
Bulldawg1
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I think every player from his best recruiting class, 2018, has now left the program. That is not ideal.
ugalee
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apmdawg said:

I know the buyout is big but this is like owning a paid for 10 year old car that is starting to need major repairs (like motor or transmission). At some point, you have to quit pouring money into it hoping it will get better and just buy a replacement. I have no animosity against Crean, however he was hired to improve the basketball program at UGA and it is not improving, it appears to be declining. His record so far is worse than the guy he replaced.
But we aren't pouring any more money into it. We already bought the transmission.

People like to compare our basketball program to UT's football program. It's not a bad comparison. It'd be an even better comparison if we fire a guy after 3 years with $7 million left on his contract and try to hire somebody for a job nobody wants.
cantonk9
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Keep a crappy coach around longer than necessary because of a buyout we agreed to & stop investing in the program while we wait for the clock to run out on his contract so we don't have to pay the guarantee.

This is like watching your house burn down, choosing to live under a bridge afterward because you don't want to pay the deductible on your homeowner's policy to rebuild, and still paying the insurance premiums on the property while your living under the bridge.

Think about that one a while

CummingDawg22
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cantonk9 said:

Keep a crappy coach around longer than necessary because of a buyout we agreed to & stop investing in the program while we wait for the clock to run out on his contract so we don't have to pay the guarantee.

This is like watching your house burn down, choosing to live under a bridge afterward because you don't want to pay the deductible on your homeowner's policy to rebuild, and still paying the insurance premiums on the property while your living under the bridge.

Think about that one a while


Firing Crean with no replacement or panic hiring like Tennessee has done in football is worse. That leads to multiple more bad years.

We waited too long to fire Crean. Recruits have committed. Coaches have taken new jobs.

I mean who do you think we get right now?

Unless you think there is some great recruiter out there waiting to take the Georgia job and are willing to pretend the next season never happened (because it will be bad regardless of coach), I don't see why you fire Crean.
CummingDawg22
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Also just a friendly reminder for those who don't think it can get worse.

We fired a guy who won an average of 18.1 games a year for Crean. He also had about a 25% better win percentage in the SEC.
cantonk9
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Ah yes, the blueprint for building a top-notch organization.

Accept mediocrity because we can't find anybody better. If this is the case, then the people responsible for conducting the search should be sent packing.

Who runs organizations like this?

Can you imagine walking into a board room and explaining the reason why we're keeping Harry around, even though he's missed his number 3 years in a row, is because we can't find anybody better? And then explaining that we also agreed to a $7M guarantee?

How do you think the board would respond? It's not a pretty picture...
PaulWesterdawg
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RE: Juwan

He and Fox were tight. He thought Fox got a raw deal. And he's looking at what Crean is doing and seeing it get worse and he's pissed. If you compound that with Crean's idiotic comment after Year 1 which was essentially (heavy paraphrase) "I should've gotten rid of most of these bums last year but I didn't which was dumb" (which were Parker's old teammates) it' was a very bad look.

That's all separate from whatever is going on now. There's just beef there.

That doesn't mean Parker is wrong.

But it does mean that Parker doesn't like him.
CummingDawg22
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cantonk9 said:

Ah yes, the blueprint for building a top-notch organization.

Accept mediocrity because we can't find anybody better. If this is the case, then the people responsible for conducting the search should be sent packing.

Who runs organizations like this?

Can you imagine walking into a board room and explaining the reason why we're keeping Harry around, even though he's missed his number 3 years in a row, is because we can't find anybody better? And then explaining that we also agreed to a $7M guarantee?

How do you think the board would respond? It's not a pretty picture...

Well I think the board would be more upset at me for the margins we are working at.

The fact that the 7 million dollar buyout is a large multiple of what we've profited since I hired Crean wouldn't look great.

Me trying to compound that by hiring another person no other company wanted with presumably a poor background, isn't my best move.

Chances are the board would be calling me in to fire me.
PaulWesterdawg
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Cantok9 - Your analogy is incomplete.

Imagine going into a board meeting and saying...

I have a sales leader who was a very strong performer at 2 prior jobs like ours. All sales leaders have a bad year or 2 here and there, but he's truly failing for the first time in his career here. In fact, He has failed all 3 years. Although, his predecessors also all failed here most of the prior 20 years.

Then what would the board do?

The board would try and figure out systemtically what's wrong. Rather than just fire the sales manager again.

That's where UGA needs to be.

Tom Crean may be an ******* and this could all be his fault and his fault alone. But the dude has been to the Final Four and the Sweet 16 four times. He' won the Big 10 regular season twice. As a head coach, He has recruited and produced more lottery picks over the past 22 years than the University of Georgia has created over that same period across 5 prior coaches.

It's extremely simplistic to just say "Fire him". And it's not as simple as who can replace him that's better. There's something systemically wrong.

Because we are paying him a truck load of money. And he's got 10-15% of the ENTIRE COUNTRY'S top recruits within 90 min from his office. And he's a proven winner. And yet still failing miserably here.

It's not as simple as he's the wrong fit. That's definitely part of it. But other than Tubby we haven't had the right fit in a sustainable way in 30 years! It's not JUST Crean now. The board needs to figure that sh*t out
friendofbob
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RyanJordan said:

I readily admit that I'm not much of a basketball guy, but Sahvir Wheeler is a vastly undersized PG who can't shoot at all.

Is he really someone you'd cry over?
Only because he is the best we have to put on the court.
CummingDawg22
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To your point, and I'm not a Crean guy -

Crean has been to the Sweet Sixteen 4 times (including his Final 4 run). Georgia as a program has been 2 times. Crean (1) and Georgia (1) have been to the Final 4 the same amount of times.

Georgia has been to the round of 32 4 times. Crean has been 5 times.

Georgia isn't Google. It's not even a Fortune 500 company currently.
Dean Legge
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Staff
That Crean is failing doesn't mean it was wrong to fire fox

He should have been let go. That was the right decision
cantonk9
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Sounds like you're laying the groundwork for bringing in some consultants to tell us what's wrong

How do you explain us putting on a basketball camp with a $2,000 budget?
Bright Idea
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If Crean had been a sitting head coach most anywhere, could Georgia have hired him? No, he would not have taken the job thinking that nobody cares about basketball. The problem with Georgia basketball is the perception that nobody cares, so recruits look elsewhere. It is obviously systemic and it is not just the administration. It will take a young dynamo coach on fire to make us all care, not with PR skills but with the ability to convince recruits that they will make Georgia care by winning. The only problem with Stegeman are the lids on the home baskets.
Dean Legge
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Staff
Listen I think this is pretty well correct.

As we draw closer to another year of frustration the next coach at UGA needs to be someone that, above all else, wins - and does so by scoring.

This is a matter - above all else - of getting the right fit. That is seemingly more difficult than it should be, or I thought it would be to be honest.

You are talking about a program that pays a lot of money for the head coach - No. 21 overall in 2021.

No. 21 at $3.2 million.

That's more than:

USC
Oklahoma
Texas
Florida
Maryland
Ohio State
Syracuse
Arizona
Iowa
Arizona State
Alabama
LSU
Notre Dame

I don't feel like I need to explain further. Getting paid over $1M more than the coach at Notre Dame is saying something about who you can attract. Coaching salary is not an issue.

You need to get the right fit.
PaulWesterdawg
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It's a red herring. And likely an error in how the data is presented. You can't cater a camp for $2k
Atowndawg
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We suffer from a myriad of issues. Our facilities are still below average, we haven't hired well, we lack a dynamic, likable head coach (and have since Harrick), we have never won consistently, and our overall investment into the program is still poor. This is a systemic and ongoing athletic department failure.

This time around, we decided that we wanted to hire a "name" to prove our commitment to basketball. We paid above market rate to do so. That is all fine in the abstract. The issue is that we stopped there. Ironically, we could have been better off going cheap on the HC, and invested more into assistant salaries, and the nuts and bolts of a competitive program, like the recruiting budget and player amenities, not only because those alternative investments could have returned us better results, but also because now the high buyout of the HC's contract prevents us from moving on. We are locked into Crean not because he is making progress, or because we believe in him, but because he costs too much to fire. It is so sad.

Until we hire a dynamic, likable coach, who coaches an attractive style of play, AND invest in facilities, recruiting, and the assistant and support staff at the same time, the whole thing is window dressing. We have always approached men's basketball like it is a constant threat to the football program. Like basketball success and investment is robbing Peter to pay Paul. I am all for fiscal responsibility, but you have to make an investment before you can reap rewards. They don't give trophies out to the athletic program with at least two profitable programs every year. Profitability is such a bright line for us. Our athletic program wants the team to exist, stay out of trouble, and pay for at least one or two non-revenue sports. That is it.

As far as a big picture plan goes, we have always assumed we could stumble into the right guy, the lights would come on, and money would begin to flow to allow for greater investments. That is not how it works. We didn't get better at football by accident. We spent more. You have got to spend money to make money.

We are going to have to invest in the program first, recruit and hire the promised one, and then fight like hell to sustain success through one or more hires. Until the AD commits to over-investing in the program in areas other than simply the HC salary, I am kind of over it. We are the Chicago Cubs of college basketball. And our Wrigley Field has no beer, looks like Epcot, and is made of cinder blocks.



PaulWesterdawg
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Mostly, I agree. But there are some caveats. The UGA job doesn't need the same type of recruiting budget that many other schools do. The talent you need is primarily within 60-90 min from the office. And the some of the biggest AAU tourneys are in this state. The private planes and helicopters rides are major factors exploding the recruiting costs.

That and the marketing / brand team parked inside the recruiting budget.

The salaries for assistants haven't been an issue. The issue isn't that Crean wanted 2 guys other than Dollar who have no ties to the southeast whatsoever on staff. He picked them. They are the wrong guys to do what needs to be done. They aren't here because he couldn't get anyone else. They are who he wanted.

As for the AAU stuff...

Jarvis Hayes (not Jonas) was the head coach of the Atlanta Celtics AAU program from 2015-2018. Ant Man played on the ATL xPress and their coach said publicly that UGA was the best fit for him. DA Layne is running skills camps the way Terrence Edwards does for hoops and Ant Man is his protege. Larry Brown (former TE and BB player is a coach in state). There are plenty of guys that can walk our AD through what's up.

With Felton and Fox, it was effort not an unwillingness to play dirty. With Fox, we had a top high school in state with 3 blue chippers on the team. We sent Stacy Palmore to recruit the kids one day. Roy Williams and John Calipari are in the HS lobby waiting for the HS coach. And Palmore sat there next to them. You know who goes in first? Not Stacy. Fox wasn't visible enough in that process and we got zero of those guys.

Those guys weren't putting in the work. They were approaching recruiting the way that Paul Johnson was doing it at GT. With Crean...I honestly don't know what all the issues are. But I do know that he (like the guys before him) have too many assistants with zero ATL ties on staff. It's always one of the Top 2-3 reasons these guys fail here. Always.

ianhiding
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Honestly, does it matter when we fire him? With transfer portals the way they are now, it doesn't set you back the way that it used to.
PaulWesterdawg
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Yes it matters when you fire someone. Programs going up get better players from smaller leagues. Programs going down get players falling from better programs down.

I was all for keeping him for 1 more year. But I'm starting to wonder what will be left for Jonas to work with next year.
Nostradawgus
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A lot of available scholarships to fill from the portal
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