we will have zero chance to be successful next year.
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It's sad we are losing so much top SEC talent this year
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Last: 5 yr ago by SidViciousDawg
At the risk of being Sheldon Cooper, I am assuming this is sarcastic.
This team should have had a better record than 2-14. How much better? I cannot say.
By my take Creen took the calculated path and decided we were going to play his desired style of play for the long term, results be damned, rather than compromising that for short term "win" gains.
Probably for the best. This team was never going to be an NCAA team this year either way with the conference strength.
I'm giving Creen every pass, benefit of the doubt, and this "throw away" season.
He's recruiting well.
Claxton would be a fool to try the NBA, and if he returns I would expect us to be on the plus side of .500 in conference play next season notwithstanding potential additions to the roster from this point forward.
This team should have had a better record than 2-14. How much better? I cannot say.
By my take Creen took the calculated path and decided we were going to play his desired style of play for the long term, results be damned, rather than compromising that for short term "win" gains.
Probably for the best. This team was never going to be an NCAA team this year either way with the conference strength.
I'm giving Creen every pass, benefit of the doubt, and this "throw away" season.
He's recruiting well.
Claxton would be a fool to try the NBA, and if he returns I would expect us to be on the plus side of .500 in conference play next season notwithstanding potential additions to the roster from this point forward.
Speaking of Claxton... he really needs to stop the woofing, flexing and posing out there. It's laughable when players on a 2-16 team are staring down opposing players after simply doing what they're out there to do. This posing for the camera, shimmying, laughing on the bench (when you're losing) and generally making themselves the center of attention needs to stop! Hell, Claxton's last FG was at the 4:22 mark in the first half. He needs a serious attitude adjustment. Right now he looks like Brittany Griner playing with the men.
Missouri didn't have more talent than us, they played more determined basketball as a team, while we couldn't play enough team defense to stop Jordan Geist from scorching us for 30!! I'll begrudgingly giving Crean and Staff a pass this year but I'm far from singing their praises.
Missouri didn't have more talent than us, they played more determined basketball as a team, while we couldn't play enough team defense to stop Jordan Geist from scorching us for 30!! I'll begrudgingly giving Crean and Staff a pass this year but I'm far from singing their praises.
The key to turning around our program is recruiting, and Crean is very good at this. You can say all you want about X and O's and Jimmie and Joes, TALENT typically wins games. I am not sure if Missouri had more talent or not, I do know that us playing without Hammonds, second leading scorer and rebounder (even though he is very inconsistent), doesn't help our cause in beating anyone. Our starting PG when the season began, Hightower, didn't even play-a message is being sent there. Our JR sharpshooter missed all 7 of his shots. This team was simply ready for the season to be over and it showed.
That being said, basketball is a sport that can change QUICKLY. Are we recruiting on the level of Duke, Kentucky, UNC etc, NO. But especially those first two, for the past how many years, they lose their starting 5 most every year in the NBA draft, and they keep rolling along. AGAIN, we are not to that level but some of you also need to wake up and smell the coffee. We have three top 100 recruits coming in already, and we have a shot to add a couple more. IF Claxton stays (to me this should be a no brainer-the kid is NOT NBA ready right now and I totally agree his behavior/attitude needs to change-he needs to act like he has been there before), along with Hammonds, also Jordan Harris, and Crump-yes, he needs to stay because he is capable of becoming HOT and he can help us as a reserve next year, this team can make a big jump. Once the recruiting ball gets rolling, watch out. Not only is Crean great at it, he has two assistant coaches that are great at it too. Next year, if we are not sitting at 9-9 in conference play or above, with the talent we will have on the court (if the 4 players all return), I will begin to be a little concerned-not a lot, but a little.
Mark Fox year one at UGA after Felton, 14-17, 5-11 in conference, second year 21-12 and 9-7 in conference, I think if Fox can do that, Crean can do that. Fox followed that up with two straight 15-17 seasons. I think folks forget who was our coach before Crean took over. Fox's greatest win total in 9 years was 21 wins in both seasons he made the NCAA tourney. Fox has been a head coach for 14 years and has won 20 or more games 9 times, with 5 trips to the NCAA where he won two games. Crean has been a head coach for 19 years, won 20 or more games 10 times, but has been to 3 Sweet Sixteens and 1 Final 4.
So, for those that don't think Crean can coach, he has won a LOT of NCAA tourney games, which is when you are in win or go home situations, against quality opponents. Mark Fox won 2 games in the NCAA while coaching at Nevada. My point being, we finally have a quality coach-we have not had one since Harrick, as Felton and Fox were not the answer. People just need to give the guy some time and lets see what he can do.
That being said, basketball is a sport that can change QUICKLY. Are we recruiting on the level of Duke, Kentucky, UNC etc, NO. But especially those first two, for the past how many years, they lose their starting 5 most every year in the NBA draft, and they keep rolling along. AGAIN, we are not to that level but some of you also need to wake up and smell the coffee. We have three top 100 recruits coming in already, and we have a shot to add a couple more. IF Claxton stays (to me this should be a no brainer-the kid is NOT NBA ready right now and I totally agree his behavior/attitude needs to change-he needs to act like he has been there before), along with Hammonds, also Jordan Harris, and Crump-yes, he needs to stay because he is capable of becoming HOT and he can help us as a reserve next year, this team can make a big jump. Once the recruiting ball gets rolling, watch out. Not only is Crean great at it, he has two assistant coaches that are great at it too. Next year, if we are not sitting at 9-9 in conference play or above, with the talent we will have on the court (if the 4 players all return), I will begin to be a little concerned-not a lot, but a little.
Mark Fox year one at UGA after Felton, 14-17, 5-11 in conference, second year 21-12 and 9-7 in conference, I think if Fox can do that, Crean can do that. Fox followed that up with two straight 15-17 seasons. I think folks forget who was our coach before Crean took over. Fox's greatest win total in 9 years was 21 wins in both seasons he made the NCAA tourney. Fox has been a head coach for 14 years and has won 20 or more games 9 times, with 5 trips to the NCAA where he won two games. Crean has been a head coach for 19 years, won 20 or more games 10 times, but has been to 3 Sweet Sixteens and 1 Final 4.
So, for those that don't think Crean can coach, he has won a LOT of NCAA tourney games, which is when you are in win or go home situations, against quality opponents. Mark Fox won 2 games in the NCAA while coaching at Nevada. My point being, we finally have a quality coach-we have not had one since Harrick, as Felton and Fox were not the answer. People just need to give the guy some time and lets see what he can do.
Crean is playing in a "different" SEC from the one Fox won in. When Fox was recording those winning SEC records, the league was only getting 2-3 NCAAT bids. Today's SEC, with very impressive coaching upgrades, is starting to get more than half the league into the Dance. That is a big improvement.
That was one of the worst-shooting teams I have ever seen.
We improved the turnovers and improved the defense, some, but never shot worth a flip. Tyree got hot a few times but showed little else, and towards the end of the season he couldn't throw the ball in a pond. Turtle was rarely an effective shooter, same with Hammonds and Clax.
The one guy I feel good about going forward is Jordan Harris. The other guys need to hang in the gym a few hours every day and shoot.
On another note, it didn't look like we pushed the pace much except against non-conference cream puffs. Maybe we played a little faster than last year but I didn't see a whole lot of runouts from us - mostly we were still trying to get a shot off as the clock wound down.
That said, I am not anywhere NEAR getting impatient. We kept Dennis Felton 7 long years, Mark Fox eight, I'll tell you after seven years of Tom Crean if I'm getting frustrated.
We improved the turnovers and improved the defense, some, but never shot worth a flip. Tyree got hot a few times but showed little else, and towards the end of the season he couldn't throw the ball in a pond. Turtle was rarely an effective shooter, same with Hammonds and Clax.
The one guy I feel good about going forward is Jordan Harris. The other guys need to hang in the gym a few hours every day and shoot.
On another note, it didn't look like we pushed the pace much except against non-conference cream puffs. Maybe we played a little faster than last year but I didn't see a whole lot of runouts from us - mostly we were still trying to get a shot off as the clock wound down.
That said, I am not anywhere NEAR getting impatient. We kept Dennis Felton 7 long years, Mark Fox eight, I'll tell you after seven years of Tom Crean if I'm getting frustrated.
About a month ago we were shooting a better % than our opponents, but were losing to having 10-15 fewer shots due to turnovers and giving up offensive rebounds. When we did have bad shooting games it got ugly.
Hey Rossville... 9, but who's counting
I don't recall anyone saying we had "top" SEC talent on this roster. But we don't have doormat talent either. We had 5 guys on this team who were rated 4 stars by Rivals and/or 24/7, and were ranked in the top 125 players nationally. I don't ever recall that many 4-star guys on our team at once. Now that's still not "top" SEC talent, but how many SEC teams have more 4-star guys than that? Maybe Kentucky, sure, but not most of the league.
Ogbeide was ranked the 91st player nationally by Rivals in 2015. That was higher than Chris Silva (currently at USC). Crump was the 66th player nationally in 2016, which was higher than Derek Funderburk (currently at NC St by way of Ohio St). Harris was 103rd, which was higher than Josh Okogie (formerly at gtu). Rayshaun Hammonds was ranked 53rd in 2017, which was higher than Alex Oconnell (currently at Duke). And last year, Ngumezi was ranked 124th, which was higher than Emmitt Matthews (who started as a Fr this year at W.Virginia). Now yeah, none of these guys are lottery picks, but they were all productive players on mostly good teams (WVA notwithstanding).
We're excited about this upcoming recruiting class (ranked in the top 10 with Brown committing), but other than Edwards, as a group Brown (61), Walton (81) and Camara (116) are collectively ranked lower than Hammonds, Crump, and Ogbeide. So is it a given that we should expect better results with less experienced and lower rated players? That's not a shot at Crean, because I feel good about the direction of the program, but it is a fair question.
Ogbeide was ranked the 91st player nationally by Rivals in 2015. That was higher than Chris Silva (currently at USC). Crump was the 66th player nationally in 2016, which was higher than Derek Funderburk (currently at NC St by way of Ohio St). Harris was 103rd, which was higher than Josh Okogie (formerly at gtu). Rayshaun Hammonds was ranked 53rd in 2017, which was higher than Alex Oconnell (currently at Duke). And last year, Ngumezi was ranked 124th, which was higher than Emmitt Matthews (who started as a Fr this year at W.Virginia). Now yeah, none of these guys are lottery picks, but they were all productive players on mostly good teams (WVA notwithstanding).
We're excited about this upcoming recruiting class (ranked in the top 10 with Brown committing), but other than Edwards, as a group Brown (61), Walton (81) and Camara (116) are collectively ranked lower than Hammonds, Crump, and Ogbeide. So is it a given that we should expect better results with less experienced and lower rated players? That's not a shot at Crean, because I feel good about the direction of the program, but it is a fair question.
It's not just about the ratings of the commitments. It's more about the fact that they are being recruited to a specific system. Ratings are not always right (Kwame Brown says hello). Some kids develop and some don't. Silva developed better in Martin's system than Derek did under Fox, and his skill set did not match Crean's system, for example. Look at UTjr this year - most of those guys were unranked or ranked so low as not to really be considered much coming out of HS. But they developed over 3-4 years. You can't rank a kid's work ethic or desire to improve or fit to a system.
Kwame Brown isn't going to say "hello" until he finishes counting that $64,000,000.00 in career earnings from being a bust.
His portfolio is a helluva lot bigger than mine.
His portfolio is a helluva lot bigger than mine.
You're exactly right and that kinda follows my point. We had several top 125 recruits on this team, none of whom developed very much. They didn't develop in either Fox's or Crean's system - which as we know are quite different systems. Is that due to the player, the coach himself, or the specific system? Looking at their skill set coming out of high school, it seems that Harris and Hammonds would fit with Crean's system pretty well (Ogbeide not so much, and Crump could go either way), but neither really did in year 1. So that begs the question: to what degree can we realistically expect other similarly rated players with similar skill sets to develop in their first year under Crean?Monkdawg said:
It's not just about the ratings of the commitments ... Ratings are not always right ... Some kids develop and some don't.
Crean's won everywhere he's been, and he's won big, so I'd really like to think he can do it here. I mean I don't think he all a sudden forgot how to coach basketball. But by the same token, I've watched a LOT of UGA Basketball over the years.
Are you saying Hammonds and Harris haven't improved under Crean, or were you talking about DO and TC?RedDawg said:
Looking at their skill set coming out of high school, it seems that Harris and Hammonds would fit with Crean's system pretty well (Ogbeide not so much, and Crump could go either way), but neither really did in year 1. So that begs the question: to what degree can we realistically expect other similarly rated players with similar skill sets to develop in their first year under Crean?
RH and JH have improved their numbers greatly from last season.
SidViciousDawg said:
Hey Rossville... 9, but who's counting
To be clear, I am not casting aspersions on either Coach Felton or Coach Fox. Both had clean programs, both brought respect to our school.
I will always remember the kid who was a walk-on in Coach Felton's program. Coach Felton found a scholarship for him his senior year, and he was scrappy and he contributed. At some point the kid was killed in a car wreck, I think while he was still a student. Coach Felton took time from his busy schedule to fly to Australia to console the kid's parents. That was class.
Coach Fox's dad, a basketball coach himself, was on his deathbed when we had an important non-conference road game in a season which had started poorly. Coach Fox made the difficult decision to make the road trip, knowing he wouldn't get to see his dad before he died. He coached the team to a victory which turned that year around. That was dedication (I know his dad would have heartily agreed with the decision).
I wish both men well both now and in the future, they have my respect.
It does look like we are on the right track to have the type of success we hoped to have under those guys, if not next year then within just a few.
Their scoring numbers are up (Harris has gotten more minutes per game this year, btw), but their turnovers and fouls are up a lot as well. And that's what killed us this year.blackmountaindawg said:
Are you saying Hammonds and Harris haven't improved under Crean, or were you talking about DO and TC?
RH and JH have improved their numbers greatly from last season.
The Aussie kid was Kevin Brophy.
When Harris started getting 20 minutes plus, he took off from his "foxed-in past". Those last 16 games, of 20+ min, he averaged around 2 turnovers/gm, but more than offset them averaging around 2 assts and 2 steals a game. His 3pt % under Fox's last season was 27%. Under Crean he led the team with 42%.RedDawg said:Their scoring numbers are up (Harris has gotten more minutes per game this year, btw), but their turnovers and fouls are up a lot as well. And that's what killed us this year.blackmountaindawg said:
Are you saying Hammonds and Harris haven't improved under Crean, or were you talking about DO and TC?
RH and JH have improved their numbers greatly from last season.
Maybe so. I really hope he busts out next season. He'll be a Sr, and he's hugely athletic. But you mention the last 16 games. In those games, Harris had 31 assists, 35 turnovers (0.88 ratio), 25 steals, and committed 42 fouls. Those numbers aren't exactly eye-popping, particularly coming from a 3rd year 4-star guy. The counter-point, unfortunately, is that in the first 14 games when he wasn't playing so much, we were 9-5. Once his PT went up, we finished 1-15 (he didn't play vs Texas, I don't think). Yeah, I know those were conference games, but 1-15?? I know Crean is a good coach, and I'm higher on our talent than the OP is, but this season was just plain ugly. A real head-scratcher. But then again, our hoops program has long been a head-scratcher.blackmountaindawg said:
When Harris started getting 20 minutes plus, he took off from his "foxed-in past". Those last 16 games, of 20+ min, he averaged around 2 turnovers/gm, but more than offset them averaging around 2 assts and 2 steals a game. His 3pt % under Fox's last season was 27%. Under Crean he led the team with 42%.
Believe it or not, I do have faith in Crean, and really hope he can get this thing going.
Yeah, Harris is a 3rd year player, Glad he survived the 1st 2 years, and has a chance to really get coached in these years 3 and 4.
Amen to that!!blackmountaindawg said:
Yeah, Harris is a 3rd year player, Glad he survived the 1st 2 years, and has a chance to really get coached in these years 3 and 4.
Harris had those bone chip issues in years 1 & 2 that kept him benched. I'd guess Crean is following Kirby's lead and not x-raying so rigorously.
Ya think those bone chips are what got Harris kicked off the team by Fox? Or could it have been that Harris had the balls to tell Fox his system wasn't working, and questioned him on why he continued it? It is hard to believe at this point in time, with Fox still basically unemployed, anyone would defend his pathetic attempts at coaching and building a program at UGA.SidViciousDawg said:
Harris had those bone chip issues in years 1 & 2 that kept him benched. I'd guess Crean is following Kirby's lead and not x-raying so rigorously.
Harris was never kicked off, he just never studied hard enough for his test.
What Fox and Staff did was far from pathetic in their time here. They got us out of the cellar where we were and competing with the better teams in the league (insert here how bad the league was...). They fell short and a change was rightfully made after finally having a losing season. 5 straight years of 9-9 to 12-6 doesn't get you fired at UGA. Pathetic better describes 2-16 and the way we looked this year. I was for the change and I'm behind Crean and Staff but let's be real, Fox wasn't pathetic and Crean hasn't been good quite yet.
What Fox and Staff did was far from pathetic in their time here. They got us out of the cellar where we were and competing with the better teams in the league (insert here how bad the league was...). They fell short and a change was rightfully made after finally having a losing season. 5 straight years of 9-9 to 12-6 doesn't get you fired at UGA. Pathetic better describes 2-16 and the way we looked this year. I was for the change and I'm behind Crean and Staff but let's be real, Fox wasn't pathetic and Crean hasn't been good quite yet.
So, Fox is a very good coach. I bet schools are lined up in a bidding war to make him their next head basketball coach.SidViciousDawg said:
Harris was never kicked off, he just never studied hard enough for his test.
What Fox and Staff did was far from pathetic in their time here. They got us out of the cellar where we were and competing with the better teams in the league (insert here how bad the league was...). They fell short and a change was rightfully made after finally having a losing season. 5 straight years of 9-9 to 12-6 doesn't get you fired at UGA. Pathetic better describes 2-16 and the way we looked this year. I was for the change and I'm behind Crean and Staff but let's be real, Fox wasn't pathetic and Crean hasn't been good quite yet.
Come on BMD, there's a wide range between saying Fox was far from pathetic and saying he was very good. I'd rate Fox and Staff just above fair, especially by UGA standards, and give them a B- overall and thank them for their effort, but it's time to move on. Which is what we've done.
I don't think Fox will land a high major job right away (similar to Andy Kennedy) but the being out of work for a year means nothing. Many coaches do that including Crean, Howland was out two years.
I don't think Fox will land a high major job right away (similar to Andy Kennedy) but the being out of work for a year means nothing. Many coaches do that including Crean, Howland was out two years.
Well, guess we were both wrong. California is a pretty good gig. Congrats to Coach Fox and Family!! Wish him luck out there...
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